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references

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• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  09:56 I definitely feel a very strong bond with the referencesNetArt community, so all the work that was in the scene of the early 2000s in Italy where we’re based. That’s probably something that came up earlier, but Clusterduck is a transnational collective, the five co-founders are based in Germany and Italy, but of course, we collaborate with a much broader community of creators all around Europe and in some cases also outside of Europe.

• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  10:40 I would say my main reference before starting working with Clusterduck were of course referencesSalvatore Iaconesi and Oriana Persico and Les Liens Invisibles, all the kinds of cross-mailing list, cross-platform communities in Italy at the time, but through Clusterduck we collaborated with referencesFranco Neva Mattes, a lot of other artists that were part of a common network when we started, but I’m sure any one of us had different kinds of connection and bonds to different scenes of the Internet. One of the things that brought us together was indeed to research and look at these different clusters of the web how they connected and overlapped sometimes and in which spaces were taking place. The matter of publishing or going public and the connection that this creates was a big part of our references at the beginning. I don’t know if Noel or Silvia want to add to that.

• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  10:40 I would say my main reference before starting working with Clusterduck were of course referencesSalvatore Iaconesi and Oriana Persico and Les Liens Invisibles, all the kinds of cross-mailing list, cross-platform communities in Italy at the time, but through Clusterduck we collaborated with referencesFranco Neva Mattes, a lot of other artists that were part of a common network when we started, but I’m sure any one of us had different kinds of connection and bonds to different scenes of the Internet. One of the things that brought us together was indeed to research and look at these different clusters of the web how they connected and overlapped sometimes and in which spaces were taking place. The matter of publishing or going public and the connection that this creates was a big part of our references at the beginning. I don’t know if Noel or Silvia want to add to that.

• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  Noel 12:06 I think an important reference is certain communities and bubbles that we were part of when we started as a collective. So that would be, for example, in the early 2010s what came to be called the references"Weird Facebook" community. What we found interesting about it was that those people (and us too) were using those platforms in a way that was completely the opposite of what Zuckerberg and their founders were hoping you to do with them. For example, anonymity, posting content that would go against the guidelines, and repeatedly opening up new profiles all the time. Trying to somehow go around this very stark surveillance and rules that were put in place on those platforms. And somehow these communities were able to create something very meaningful and precious to us and to many people that lived through it at the time. And I think if one traces this back to the topic of publishing, maybe one could even go as far as to say that this goes back to certain communitarian practices, like self-published zines in the referencespunk communities or political communities. This DIY ethos of just doing your thing and not caring about what the rules and consequences are.

• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  Noel 12:06 I think an important reference is certain communities and bubbles that we were part of when we started as a collective. So that would be, for example, in the early 2010s what came to be called the references"Weird Facebook" community. What we found interesting about it was that those people (and us too) were using those platforms in a way that was completely the opposite of what Zuckerberg and their founders were hoping you to do with them. For example, anonymity, posting content that would go against the guidelines, and repeatedly opening up new profiles all the time. Trying to somehow go around this very stark surveillance and rules that were put in place on those platforms. And somehow these communities were able to create something very meaningful and precious to us and to many people that lived through it at the time. And I think if one traces this back to the topic of publishing, maybe one could even go as far as to say that this goes back to certain communitarian practices, like self-published zines in the referencespunk communities or political communities. This DIY ethos of just doing your thing and not caring about what the rules and consequences are.

• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  (00:27:00) - For example, we didn’t talk about one of our main works, which is the one that Noel has behind him. Our research brings us to build huge walls of memes, called the toolsdetective walls, which is a spin-off of another project of ours called referencesMeme Manifesto, and this says a lot about the tools that we use and also about publishing. We published the internet on a 20-meter wall, and we did that by using the tools that we are using already, for example, Noel mentioned Telegram, we use it to gather memes. Some of us, especially Francesca, have a passion for toolsarchiving and so we were toolsscraping Reddit and 4chan and a lot of different social media. In the end, we were publishing something, even in a very weird way, and the work was transmedia because we had many media in which we wanted to post it.

• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  (00:30:54) - It’s about finding a method to survive all this content, survive all this rhythm that somehow we are imposing onto us. The people thoat work in culture are doing it a lot. You are self-exploiting the enthusiasm that you and your peers have, while we should find a way to protect ourselves from these so that we don’t exhaust all the energies that we have. Our last work, which is called references"Deep Fried Feels” and that we haven’t presented, is also about that, about our feelings and how the media and communications together are kind of destructive.

• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  (00:39:55) - The community is very diverse. [[Who: Community of Publishing | Every time that we go places, we invite people as a follow-up to join our Telegram chats. And then there is a network of people who we collaborate with in our jobs.]] And so during the years, every time that we wanted to do something, and we wanted to collaborate, for example, with a developer or with a designer, networkspeople were adding up to the cluster family. For example, the collaboration with referencesJules Duran, who is a very good designer and type designer, was very precious in the work on Meme Manifesto. There are some others, like developers, referencesPietro Arial Parisi, Super Internet, and Gregorio Macini, that are helping us with the development of the many websites that we did, but also intervening in other ways, because all of our collaborators are very interested in a lot of things.

• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  (00:39:55) - The community is very diverse. [[Who: Community of Publishing | Every time that we go places, we invite people as a follow-up to join our Telegram chats. And then there is a network of people who we collaborate with in our jobs.]] And so during the years, every time that we wanted to do something, and we wanted to collaborate, for example, with a developer or with a designer, networkspeople were adding up to the cluster family. For example, the collaboration with referencesJules Duran, who is a very good designer and type designer, was very precious in the work on Meme Manifesto. There are some others, like developers, referencesPietro Arial Parisi, Super Internet, and Gregorio Macini, that are helping us with the development of the many websites that we did, but also intervening in other ways, because all of our collaborators are very interested in a lot of things.

• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  Noel (00:43:40) - Can I add just one thing on the community topic that we were addressing before, just one small thing? I think the Institute for Network Cultures published a book which addresses the topic quite well, referenceswhich is a dark forest anthology. (Marta: Actually, that’s my book!) We love it, it’s a very great concept to describe what online communities can be like in a positive sense. You know very well how much work it is to manage a community. And to be honest, we [[Who: Community of Publishing | sometimes feel that we have to put so much work into making things work between us as a collective that we would love to put more work into community management, growing communities and addressing communities. ]]You know very well how much work that is. So we don’t always have enough time to do that as we would like. But we have a lot of love and respect for anyone who does so, and there are some great people out there who are great at doing this.

• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  Silvia (00:46:24) - The referencesSuper Internet Space is a multiplayer room in which everybody can draw, this was the start of it. Clusterduck organized things in this space in 2018 as part of references"Meme Propaganda", which was maybe our first participative operation. And it was the operation that Noel was talking about when we started to understand what memes can be, that memes can be used for propaganda. But later on, the networksSuper Internet Space developed into something which is a kind of satellite of Clusterduck with other collaborators.

• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  Silvia (00:46:24) - The referencesSuper Internet Space is a multiplayer room in which everybody can draw, this was the start of it. Clusterduck organized things in this space in 2018 as part of references"Meme Propaganda", which was maybe our first participative operation. And it was the operation that Noel was talking about when we started to understand what memes can be, that memes can be used for propaganda. But later on, the networksSuper Internet Space developed into something which is a kind of satellite of Clusterduck with other collaborators.

• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  (00:47:30) - opinionThe position of Clusterduck in terms of cryptocurrencies is very attentive and critical, because we saw what happened during COVID with the NFT craze in relationship to our network of digital artists, and it was very ambiguous. So we were watching it happening, and it was destroying the vision that people have about digital art because, for us, digital art is much more than a JPEG sold on a digital Metaverse or whatever platform/museum. The Super Internet World Experience has something in common with Clusterduck and also with a very nice work from referencesSilvio Lorusso, "The Slice". It was a project that we really liked, they were using a cake and everybody could try to join in the building just by posting their art on this cake. And what was happening is that if you managed to post on the cake, you could write on your CV that you exhibited at Kunsthalle, we love that. Super Internet Space does something in that direction in the sense that crypto as a technology makes it easier to assign a room to the artist that joins the project. And so to answer your question, Lorenzo, maybe it is useful to make the process easier. About the CV, we particularly loved that thing and we use that in the Meme Manifesto project as well. interesting-practiceThis year we were exhibiting at KW Institute in Berlin, and we asked the curator to write a very huge colophon of 300 names so that all the people who somehow (that we know) joined the project could write on their CV that they were exhibiting at the KW Institute of Contemporary Art, which is, I think, the “higher” place in we got in. So we wanted to give back. To sum it up, if we can use any tool, script or whatever, we try to give back something to the community that we are interacting with.

• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  Aria (01:01:49) - Traditional publishing has been, overall, a very nice experience for us. It’s not the medium we’re most familiar with, but I think this is another aspect that makes it interesting to work with transmedia projects and different kinds of outputs, one big recurring theme through all the different publishing platforms is diffusion. We worked on a video documentary which was published because of distribution issues and it needs to be distributed to meet the public. This is not something that we experienced in our editorial projects. It’s not our main medium, so we work with publishers that share common goals and ideas with us when working on printed books, such as references“The Detective World Guide” that was mentioned, or the most recent publications that we’re working with Nero Editions. So I would say that it’s a very particular way of publishing. Another recurring theme in all our publications is accessibility, so another thing that we try to keep in mind when working on printed books is how accessible they can be, and which is the target they refer to, to make it as accessible and understandable as possible.

• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  Silvia (01:06:44) - I remember I was very impressed by referencesPaul Soulellis' anthologies. I remember I was at Eyebeam in New York and there was this girl, Nora, she showed me a book where Paul Soulellis had printed all the Twitter bots on a book. It was called references"Printed Web 5: Bot Anthology". Printing a very selected archive of what is happening on the internet on paper impressed me. Then you can put it into question, as Noel would say. How can you contextualize something that is happening on a very broad, very strange and diffused medium like the internet? If you want to put it on print, what is happening?

• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  Silvia (01:06:44) - I remember I was very impressed by referencesPaul Soulellis' anthologies. I remember I was at Eyebeam in New York and there was this girl, Nora, she showed me a book where Paul Soulellis had printed all the Twitter bots on a book. It was called references"Printed Web 5: Bot Anthology". Printing a very selected archive of what is happening on the internet on paper impressed me. Then you can put it into question, as Noel would say. How can you contextualize something that is happening on a very broad, very strange and diffused medium like the internet? If you want to put it on print, what is happening?

• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  Noel (01:09:01) - It relates to the two biggest constraints of all, the unrepresentability of reality as a whole, and of complex discourses and the limitations of our senses. And one way to go around that is, as Silvia was saying with printing, concentrating on something very narrow and very specific. I’m thinking, for example, of Anna Tsing’s book references"The Mushroom at the End of the World”, in which she tells the story of something as complex as the Anthropocene by concentrating on something as tiny as a mushroom. And I think this is always a good way of circumventing constraints.

• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  (01:15:21) - referencesFanzines are an imaginary we refer a lot to. Many times they are in their printed shape and they are very local, very specific projects that do not tend to cross borders and arrive at very different places and times in the world. With the internet, you can bridge this gap and make ends meet. So,[[What: Future of Publishing | I would say to think about the node of diffusion and distribution also in a cross-media environment such as the one that we live in. ]]

• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  (01:19:17) - What I wanted to add is that in the past, with books like references"House of Leaves", or I remember a project by referencesKatherine Kayles, which was about electronic literature… there were many attempts of making a book something which is not only a book. quoteI remember Geert Lovink telling me that publishing should be fast so that you can be in the conversation while the conversation is happening. I think that you are already doing this. [[What: Future of Publishing | You’re exploring the power of the book as a printed medium (which is a lot, as we were saying before) but doing it in a fast way and using the feedback that you can create with social media communities.]] I think this is working somehow.

• from: Clusterduck (chapter)

  (01:19:17) - What I wanted to add is that in the past, with books like references"House of Leaves", or I remember a project by referencesKatherine Kayles, which was about electronic literature… there were many attempts of making a book something which is not only a book. quoteI remember Geert Lovink telling me that publishing should be fast so that you can be in the conversation while the conversation is happening. I think that you are already doing this. [[What: Future of Publishing | You’re exploring the power of the book as a printed medium (which is a lot, as we were saying before) but doing it in a fast way and using the feedback that you can create with social media communities.]] I think this is working somehow.

• from: Silvio Lorusso (chapter)

  03:40 The main byproduct of that is still online, called references“Post-Digital Publishing Archive”. I recently changed the code, so it doesn’t look like a shady website. I was also involved for a couple of years in an initiative called the referencesPublishing Lab, which was a series of collaborations with real-world partners in terms of creating publishing outputs.

• from: Silvio Lorusso (chapter)

  03:40 The main byproduct of that is still online, called references“Post-Digital Publishing Archive”. I recently changed the code, so it doesn’t look like a shady website. I was also involved for a couple of years in an initiative called the referencesPublishing Lab, which was a series of collaborations with real-world partners in terms of creating publishing outputs.

• from: Silvio Lorusso (chapter)

  05:49 sustainability of workflowsOne mistake that is often made — I experienced it myself with other projects — is to reinvent the wheel, in imagining giant systems that would last forever. You can make a comparison with another archive that, from this point of view, was way more lean and in this sense, successful, which was the references“Library of the Printed Web”, Paul Soullelis’ work. You would buy the publication, since it was print-on-demand, take a couple of pictures and write just a little description. The archive was physical, and there were financial resources there, it was way easier to give a sense of coherence. workflowsAnother thing I would have done is connect it to a platform or a stable service, that exists beyond yourself. The perfect example would have been the referencesInternet Archive, and some archives are taking that strategy, for example, an Italian archive of radical publishing, which is called the referencesGrafton 9. The work is to upload it to a collection in the Internet Archive because you know that it will be safe, even if you don’t have the time or the resources to pay for the domain and so on.

• from: Silvio Lorusso (chapter)

  05:49 sustainability of workflowsOne mistake that is often made — I experienced it myself with other projects — is to reinvent the wheel, in imagining giant systems that would last forever. You can make a comparison with another archive that, from this point of view, was way more lean and in this sense, successful, which was the references“Library of the Printed Web”, Paul Soullelis’ work. You would buy the publication, since it was print-on-demand, take a couple of pictures and write just a little description. The archive was physical, and there were financial resources there, it was way easier to give a sense of coherence. workflowsAnother thing I would have done is connect it to a platform or a stable service, that exists beyond yourself. The perfect example would have been the referencesInternet Archive, and some archives are taking that strategy, for example, an Italian archive of radical publishing, which is called the referencesGrafton 9. The work is to upload it to a collection in the Internet Archive because you know that it will be safe, even if you don’t have the time or the resources to pay for the domain and so on.

• from: Silvio Lorusso (chapter)

  05:49 sustainability of workflowsOne mistake that is often made — I experienced it myself with other projects — is to reinvent the wheel, in imagining giant systems that would last forever. You can make a comparison with another archive that, from this point of view, was way more lean and in this sense, successful, which was the references“Library of the Printed Web”, Paul Soullelis’ work. You would buy the publication, since it was print-on-demand, take a couple of pictures and write just a little description. The archive was physical, and there were financial resources there, it was way easier to give a sense of coherence. workflowsAnother thing I would have done is connect it to a platform or a stable service, that exists beyond yourself. The perfect example would have been the referencesInternet Archive, and some archives are taking that strategy, for example, an Italian archive of radical publishing, which is called the referencesGrafton 9. The work is to upload it to a collection in the Internet Archive because you know that it will be safe, even if you don’t have the time or the resources to pay for the domain and so on.

• from: Silvio Lorusso (chapter)

  Silvio 08:07 I see it as crucial. traditional publishingThe point in which “Entreprecariat” and small independent publishing intersect is in the fact that making a book in the traditional sense, in a way that lasts, is distributed, has an ISBN, et cetera, is very difficult. The actors that are active in making this happen are very minimal. Especially for the kind of literature that I’m interested in both reading and writing, the options are small and they are becoming smaller. Currently, that’s my primary concern. I’m sorry if I take too long, but I think it’s a crucial point to articulate my understanding of expanded publishing. alternative practicesIn the past I’ve been mostly interested in the weird experimental EPUBs or booking a JPEG, booking a floppy disk, a super long form that is interactive and so on… Nowadays, it’s a bit of a disappointment that many of physical objectsthese experiments, after about 10 years, are completely forgotten unless there is someone who, again, converts them into the traditional book — by the way, that’s what happening, for example, with the book by Annette Gilbert that is coming out now for Spector Books, references“Library of Artistic Print on Demand: Post-Digital Publishing in Times of Platform Capitalism”.

• from: Silvio Lorusso (chapter)

  The people I’ve seen manage to cut ties with traditional institutions, when they manage, it’s an exceptional and somewhat uncertain path. I’m talking about people starting Patreon. But if you want to have a sustainable life with Patreon, you need to have an extremely huge user and fan base. And that also limits your output in the sense that the fan base, the people that will pay the five dollars every month, expect from you the same thing that you did the month before. So I think the most convincing negotiation between abandonment and staying, I found it in a book, which probably you all know, called references“The Undercommons”. This idea that you stay in the institution because, to a certain extent, you cannot escape it completely, unless you are a superstar. conditions of workAnd you steal from the institution: you steal the tape, for instance. Of course, it’s metaphorical, but you create spaces within the institution without reverence to the institution to pursue your goal. And why don’t you feel guilty? You don’t feel guilty because, after all, what you are doing is what you are paid for, to do research, to write, not to not to embark on managerial jobs. These are necessary things, but if they take 100% of your time, then better go to corporate, no?

• from: Silvio Lorusso (chapter)

  But the part that I liked was exactly this kind of sort of tactical carelessness and not reverence, to use what’s out there, this full bricoleur attitude, by any means necessary, that part was nice. So I think it’s a good reference to at least try to go out of the term of the more classical terms like scene or community. In the Netherlands, a good work in this sense has been done by Pascal Gielen, a sociologist who wrote an article on what “scene” means or the visibility issue of that part, which I think could be interesting from the publishing point of view. The book is called references“The Murmuring of the Artistic Multitude”.